Da Capo Conversations 2.0 with Stephanie M. Neumann and Rajna Swaminathan

For Good Measure, by Ensemble for These Times (E4TT)
Episode 215: Da Capo Conversations 2.0 with Stephanie M. Neumann and Rajna Swaminthan

Looking for a way to listen to diverse creators and to support equity in the arts? Tune in weekly to For Good Measure!

Today we revisit Stephanie M. Neumann’s and Rajna Swaminathan’s advice for emerging artists. If you enjoyed today’s conversation and want to know more about Stephanie M. Neumann and Rajna Swaminathan, check them out here and here. Parts of this episode originally premiered in March 2024, click here, and September 2025, click here.

This podcast is made possible by grants from the California Arts Council, SF Arts Commission, Grants for the Arts, and generous donors like you. Want to support For Good Measure and E4TT? Make a tax-deductible donation or sign up for our newsletter, and subscribe to the podcast!

Intro music: “Trifolium” by Gabriela Ortiz, performed by E4TT (Ilana Blumberg, violin; Abigail Monroe, cello; Margaret Halbig, piano), as part of “Below the Surface: Music by Women Composers,” January 29, 2022
Outro music: “Lake Turkana” by Marcus Norris, performed by E4TT (Margaret Halbig, piano), as part of “Alchemy,” October 15, 2021

Transcription courtesy of Otter.ai.
Buzzsprout: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1903729/episodes/19476644

Co-Producer, Host, and E4TT co-founder: Nanette McGuinness
Co-Producer and Audio Engineer: Stephanie M. Neumann
Podcast Cover Art: Brennan Stokes
Interns: Renata Volchinskaya, Sam Mason, Christy Xu

Transcript

Nanette McGuinness  00:00

[INTRO MUSIC] Welcome to For Good Measure, an interview series celebrating diverse composers and other creative artists. I'm Nanette McGuinness, Artistic Executive Director of Ensemble for These Times. In this week's episode, we continue our Da Capo Conversations, a mini-series where we'll be giving familiar segments a topical twist. [INTRO MUSIC ENDS] Today, we revisit Stephanie M. Neumann's and Rajna Swaminathan's advice for young or emerging composers and artists. Here's what Stephanie M. Neumann had to say.

Stephanie M. Neumann  00:39

I think the advice that I wanted to give myself when I was a young musician is that it's okay to not be perfect. No one is perfect. And you hear that you're like, yeah, yeah, but...

Nanette McGuinness  00:56

But it's really true.

Stephanie M. Neumann  00:57

But it is true. And there are situations unfortunately, which I talked about, how the competitiveness and, there are some really intense directors and, and I see some negative influences in music that probably stunted my relationship that when that was happening, and so that's not all music is and it's not what it should be about. And then also just, there's so many different types of music. Just because you're not really interested in one, there might be something else you really like, or get interested in. And I know that I've seen kids who get, people who get frustrated, but maybe giving other options and music, like maybe the free improvisation to some younger kids who are just stuck and trying to be perfect, maybe that could be for them, too.

Nanette McGuinness  01:59

It really seems like, for you, improvisation acted as an antidote to the stifling effect of perfectionism on your creativity and success, and that when you had that in your tool chest, all of a sudden the worlds open up to you again.

Stephanie M. Neumann  02:18

Yeah. And now when I am playing classical music, I think I'm just less hard on myself for sure. I mean, yes, getting older helps with that, too.

Nanette McGuinness  02:28

Here's what Rajna Swaminathan had to say.

Rajna Swaminathan  02:32

I think my one piece of advice, which is something I've learned over time, is to not force it. I think the more that you try to force something to happen, the less likely it is to happen in a meaningful way. And I think there's ways that I mean I've learned from my collaborators that just living your life and paying attention to things, just in your lived experience, and noticing how they manifest in your creative work, can be a way of orienting it towards that. It doesn't have to be like a one to one relationship, where you can clearly, you know, explain what is, what is what in a piece. And I find myself in this situation always because, you know, people do want me to explain my work or justify it, or say why, you know, and I'm not saying that your questions are doing this. In fact, I think, if anything, your questions are allowing me to to, you know, say exactly why. I don't think that needs to happen, because we're always in flux. And you know what I say to you today is going to be different if we speak like, a year or two from now?

Nanette McGuinness  03:46

Absolutely.

Rajna Swaminathan  03:47

So I don't see the purpose of fixing it. I don't see any purpose in saying, Well, this is the Indian part of my work, and this is the Western part of my work, because even those, those categories are are in flux, you know, and have informed each other over the years, over the centuries, I should say. And so I think my advice, in general, maybe this, this is obviously probably pertinent for young, female and queer composers, but, but to any composer, I'd say, who's who's trying to deal with their identity, is to allow it to come forward in ways that maybe you don't understand yet, and maybe you'll listen back a couple years from now, and it'll make sense in a different way, and to allow that depth to come through. There's this Martinique and poet philosopher whose work I really enjoy, Édouard Glissant, and he talks about it as the right to opacity, um, because there are all these colonial frameworks that make us feel like we need to be intelligible to the, you know, what is usually defined as a kind of white gaze, or like a white framework.

Nanette McGuinness  05:05

Right.

Rajna Swaminathan  05:07

You know, or a kind of framework that wants to taxonomize, and his whole point is, well, actually maybe lean into your right to not be intelligible, into your right to be mysterious and to maybe not even have those things clearly defined for yourself. Because sometimes the most meaningful and deep kinds of experiences come from that - come from not knowing.

Nanette McGuinness  05:34

mmhmm...the mystery.

Rajna Swaminathan  05:35

Right. And so that's sort of general advice in saying "don't force it" - to also allow things you don't know to come through.

Nanette McGuinness  05:46

That's true. When one forces things, they never work. You know, they really don't, but what you were saying about the mysterious or the unnamed or the non-categorized? My mom is an artist, and for years she wouldn't put titles on her pieces. She refused because she said it would - and she's right - that it would focus the viewers expectations on the piece, and they would see it in a certain way. And she didn't want that. So it was, it was interesting. So the unfathomable becomes or stays that way. Instead of just, you know, you put a stamp on something and say, "Okay, this is about that." So we'll move on now...

Rajna Swaminathan  06:34

...from the conversation a bit.

Nanette McGuinness  06:37

Yeah... I think so, or at least it constricts it, if nothing else.

Rajna Swaminathan  06:42

Yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  06:42

[OUTRO MUSIC] Thank you for listening to For Good Measure, and a special thank you to our guests for joining us today. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our podcast by clicking on the subscribe button and support us by sharing it with your friends, posting about it on social media and leaving us a rating and a review. To learn more about E4TT, our concert season online and in the Bay Area, or to make a tax-deductible donation, please visit us at www.E4TT.org. This podcast is made possible by grants from the California Arts Council, the San Francisco Arts Commission, Grants for the Arts, and generous donors like you. For Good Measure is produced by Nanette McGuinness and Ensemble for These Times, and design by Brennan Stokes, with special thanks to Co-producer and Audio Engineer Stephanie M. Neumann. Remember to keep supporting equity in the arts and tune in next week "for good measure." [OUTRO MUSIC ENDS]