Hitomi Oba - Part 5

For Good Measure, by Ensemble for These Times (E4TT)
Episode 160: Hitomi Oba - Part 5

In this week’s episode, we talk to Hitomi Oba about how her identity as a Japanese-American woman has affected her professional relationships, and how these experiences have informed raising her children to stand up for themselves. If you enjoyed today’s conversation and want to know more about Hitomi Oba, check her out here: https://www.hitomioba.com/. This episode was originally recorded in December 2023.

This podcast is made possible in part by a grant from the California Arts Council and generous donors, like you. Want to support For Good Measure and E4TT? Make a tax-deductible donation or sign up for our newsletter, and subscribe to the podcast!

Intro music: “Trifolium” by Gabriela Ortiz, performed by E4TT (Ilana Blumberg, violin; Abigail Monroe, cello; Margaret Halbig, piano),  as part of “Below the Surface: Music by Women Composers,” January 29, 2022
Outro music: “Lake Turkana” by Marcus Norris, performed by E4TT (Margaret Halbig, piano), as part of “Alchemy,” October 15, 2021

Transcription courtesy of Otter.ai.
Buzzsprout: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1903729/episodes/17156338

Producer, Host, and E4TT co-founder: Nanette McGuinness
Co-producer and Audio Engineer: Stephanie M. Neumann
Podcast Cover Art: Brennan Stokes
Interns: Renata Volchinskaya, Sam Mason

Chapters

• 0:22 In this week's episode, we continue our conversation with Hitomi Oba, who we spoke to in December 2023.
• 0:30 Would you say that your identity and background played a role in your musical career, or more in terms of your background or in your style?
• 9:54 Did you find that in terms of the trajectory that either being a woman or a Japanese-American, an Asian performer, musician, composer, did it affect the trajectory of your career?

Transcript

Nanette McGuinness  00:00

[INTRO MUSIC] Welcome to For Good Measure, an interview series celebrating diverse composers and other creative artists sponsored by a grant from the California Arts Council. I'm Nanette McGuinness, Artistic Executive Director of Ensemble for These Times. In this week's episode, we continue our conversation with Hitomi Oba, who we spoke to in December 2023. [INTRO MUSIC ENDS] Would you say that your identity and background played a role in your musical career, or more in terms of your background or in your style?

Hitomi Oba  00:39

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's inevitable, right? It's inevitable that our, you know, backgrounds as people, influence our music. And I think it's just a matter of whether we're kind of, like, putting up barriers to inhibit that or not. So again, being aware of when I am putting up maybe potential barriers, and like, you know, letting them down. Because if I let them down, then I think inevitably, it'll influence these things. So, yeah, I'm realizing, as I get older, you know, I become more self aware of these things, like and unpacking all various things. I'm realizing more and more how it does influence my career, right? So if we're just talking about the career portion, not even the musical part, you know, my trajectory to becoming a professional musician, you know, the childhood influences, the support I got, you know, being an environment where, yes, arts were valued, for instance, you know, and people were supportive and encouraging, and obviously they were also, you know, being subject, you know, I'm realizing again, more that I was also subject to negative biases and messaging as a child and as a young person and as an adult that have to do with like, you know, expectations of what one can or not do. It's and, you know, the intersection of these various biases. You know, I'm like a small Asian woman. [laughs] I used to be a young, small Asian woman, 

Nanette McGuinness  02:00

[laughs] 

Hitomi Oba  02:00

which, you know, is like very, you know, subject to a lot of, like, different kinds of racial and also gender based, you know, things being here. So then how that translated to how I kind of not consciously, but, you know, learn to behave, to survive in these fields where I was often the minority, you know. So I'm realizing now that a lot of the demeanors I take in professional situations were ways of acting to kind of survive those situations. Like, you know, like, "Oh, I'm not a threat," you know, "Please, I'm not a threat." I'm also not a sexual interest or romantic interest, like, you know, I would like to be, you know, regarded with respect, you know, and like, or like, you know, I kind of used to, you know, in order to do those, you know, kind of send this message, I might like propa, there's more than necessary to, kind of like, create this, you know, hierarchy on my own, you know, not on my own. It was existent. But me, kind of like, enforcing a lot of these social hierarchies, reinforcing them to kind of yeah is to try to survive and, you know, protect myself. 

Nanette McGuinness  03:12

Right. 

Hitomi Oba  03:13

Yeah. So I've kind of been realizing, even just like this past week, I've been like, unpacking a lot of these things. You know, I'm almost 40 and, like, it's taking a long time for me to realize these things, but I think so actually, yeah, going back to the being a parent thing, I'm realizing a lot of these things now as I'm parenting two girls, yeah, like, this is another parent tension. [laughs] But, you know, and they're always it's not having to music profession. But for instance, my older daughter had an experience recently where she kind of like, was stood up in a situation where she someone was doing something that she didn't appreciate. It wasn't like, super, you know, super serious or anything, but I think, like her teachers described it as, like, she first, like, used her body language to show them she didn't like it, and then when they didn't stop, she, like, said something verbally, like, "I don't like that. Can you stop?" 

Nanette McGuinness  04:06

Good. 

Hitomi Oba  04:06

Right! And my...but I realized the big realization here was that my immediate reaction in that situation would have been to tell her, like, "Oh, can you say the same message, but in a way, that's nicer, that doesn't hurt the other person's feelings." And...but when I brought this about, the teachers were like, "No, we're proud of her. She like, this is important for her to be able to state this in the way she did, exactly like she did, especially as a girl in this society." 

Nanette McGuinness  04:07

To own her power. 

Hitomi Oba  04:07

To own her value! And I just it was this huge realization for me, and that it was like a shattering realization for me, that I was passing on my conditioning to her. My inclination was to pass on this conditioning to her, you know. And it was just, it was shattering to me, and I've been, like, conscious of it since, you know, at not, I mean, obviously "be kind" is a message I want to pass on. But my, my inclination was her to kind of consider the other person's feelings more than even her own. You know, and to say, like, "We don't want that, we don't want the other person be offended." So I've been kind of carrying that over into my professional situations as well, and I kind of applied that to a realization on a recent gig where I was like, "Oh, I'm doing it again." 

Nanette McGuinness  04:22

[laughs] 

Hitomi Oba  04:30

I'm doing it in this situation. Because I was, you know, I was playing with people I didn't really know. And, you know, it was in a kind of situation with maybe, like, older people, you know, who are not in on the same kind of, you know, we were plate that place that we're talking about earlier. And so I think I was being extra cautious, and I was being extra, you know, propping them up more, you know. And it kind of was like, I was like, "Oh, I'm reverting back to this thing, even though I had this realization," and it's just, it's very deep condition, you know, conditioning, especially being a minority in these kind of especially in the jazz field, it was, like, predominantly male-dominated. Sometimes I was the only woman. You know, it's often though, like, okay, most of the time I'm the only Asian American woman. Yeah, actually, I there. I can only count several instances without my sister, where I was not the only Asian American woman, often younger than everybody else, too. So, yeah, it's, it's been, it's been an ongoing...

Nanette McGuinness  06:10

struggle.

Hitomi Oba  06:11

Ongoing struggle, and realize, you know, realize, realize, realizing these things. And then I think I'm glad I'm able to realize these things now so that I can hopefully try to address them more as I parent and also as I continue, you know, working in these environments, yeah, but yeah, musically too. I mean, I that was mostly about even just like being a professional in the field, but musically, especially, you know, this again, goes to the jazz world a little bit more, just because it's more male dominated, and Asian Americans are less represented there. 

Nanette McGuinness  06:12

Right. 

Hitomi Oba  06:44

But there's, you know, a lot of times there's been a need to, like, defy expectations, you know, especially coming from a place like Berkeley, where everyone's like, "Yes, you're a woman," [laughs] you know, like, there's a lot of hope hung up on you, like, "You're a girl, you could, you know, yeah, you go get em!" and it's like, "Okay, I'm gonna go get em!" you know, [laughs] I can play like the guys, is basically the messaging I was getting was I was growing up. And so that translates to certain kinds of playing, and also behavior on the bandstand and demeanor too, right? So just kind of reflecting back on that now, as I get older, and, you know, again, trying to be like, Well, what is my voice? [laughs] And that isn't have to do just with expectations, you know, whether they're, you know, positive expectations or negative expectations, you know, the matter of, like, proving yourself, or kind of, you know, trying to, you know, I don't know. Respond to people's hopes. I don't know. So musically, that's been, you know, again, a lot of unpacking and trying to figure out what that means. But also, you know, I'm grateful because I've been enriched by so many diverse perspectives and inputs, and so kind of trying to embrace these various traits that might seem less competitive, you know, and recognizing my reasons for making certain decisions has been an ongoing, kind of somewhat more recent priority,

Nanette McGuinness  08:17

Maybe related to having kids, that...

Hitomi Oba  08:20

Absolutely. 

Nanette McGuinness  08:20

Yeah, that the model that you're providing and the and the mirroring that you're...you might be seeing, because I think it's so hard in our society. It isn't just the conditioning. There's the conditioning that you were talking about and the impulses that we're trained out of.

Hitomi Oba  08:41

Right! 

Nanette McGuinness  08:41

Right, because they're not nice necessarily. In quotes, "not nice" necessarily. But there's this really tricky balance that a woman has to walk between knowing what's right, speaking her mind, and being put down for that. 

Hitomi Oba  09:01

Right. 

Nanette McGuinness  09:02

Or being afraid of being put down for that, it's just a really thin line.

Hitomi Oba  09:08

Absolutely, absolutely. As a woman, and I'm realizing now, yeah, in this new role as a mother, especially, too, right?

Nanette McGuinness  09:08

Right. 

Hitomi Oba  09:08

So it's like, how vocal should I be about being a mother? 

Nanette McGuinness  09:08

[laughs] 

Hitomi Oba  09:10

You know, in some cases it's so important, right to say, like, yes, representation, like, I'm more representation, right? So for other people to see and to kind of like, you know, maybe change people's minds about these perceptions, but at the same time you're right, then you're making yourself, or I'm making myself more vulnerable to potential, you know, professional backlash [laughs] and stigma. So yeah, as, it's a fine line, like you say, yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  09:43

Yeah. And that line moves around. It's not like, you know, it moves around time wise and location wise 

Hitomi Oba  09:50

Right! 

Nanette McGuinness  09:51

You don't always know where you are. Did you find that in terms of the trajectory that either being a woman or a Japanese-American, an Asian performer, musician, composer, did it affect the trajectory of your career?

Hitomi Oba  10:08

That's hard to say. That's hard to say. I've...I think in a lot of ways, I received a lot of encouragement.

Nanette McGuinness  10:17

Sounds like it, yeah.

Hitomi Oba  10:17

Maybe because of that...but maybe I would also say I received a lot of encouragement and support despite of that as well, right? 

Nanette McGuinness  10:26

[laughs] 

Hitomi Oba  10:27

You know, so, so, yeah, I'm not sure. I think I'll be having to discover that more like, what, how, like, how my path could've influenced that, like, in terms of the actual, actual, you know, actually following this path forward, yeah, if it's the in despite of that, or also, but, you know, because of that, I attributed a lot of it to my parents. 

Nanette McGuinness  10:59

Yeah. 

Hitomi Oba  10:59

Being able to follow through with this, and kind of like reminding me over and over, like, yes, arts, arts are important to humanity. And, you know, just being encouraging of that, and, you know, reminding me of the values of what's are important, you know, yeah, so I think in some ways it's helped. In a lot of ways, I feel like I did it despite the difficulties of, you know, having that, that those identities, yeah. 

Nanette McGuinness  11:33

That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, it's a perfectly legitimate answer to say no, didn't affect it at all. [laughs] But it sounds like for you, it was good, you know,

Hitomi Oba  11:43

Yeah, yeah, there were challenges because of that, I'm certain, absolutely, but I think in some ways it did have, you know, it did help in a lot of ways too.

Nanette McGuinness  11:53

[OUTRO MUSIC BEGINS] Thank you for listening to For Good Measure, and a special thank you to our guest, Hitomi Oba, for joining us today. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our podcast by clicking on the subscribe button, and support us by sharing it with your friends, posting about it on social media, and leaving us a rating and a review. To learn more about E4TT, our concert season online and in the Bay Area, or to make a tax-deductible donation, please visit us at e4tt.org. This podcast is made possible in part by a grant from the California Arts Council and generous donors like you. For Good Measure is produced by Nanette McGuinness and Ensemble for These Times and design by Brennan Stokes, with special thanks to co-producer and audio engineer Stephanie M. Neumann. Remember to keep supporting equity in the arts and tune in next week "for good measure." [OUTRO MUSIC ENDS]