Ursula Kwong-Brown - Part 6

For Good Measure, by Ensemble for These Times (E4TT)
Episode 127: Ursula Kwong-Brown - Part 6

Looking for a way to listen to diverse creators and to support equity in the arts? Tune in weekly to For Good Measure!

In this week’s episode, we talk to Ursula Kwong-Brown about career challenges as a woman artist of color, the importance of finding community, and the joy of programming old and new works by composers with diverse backgrounds. If you enjoyed today’s conversation and want to know more about Ursula Kwong-Brown, check her out here: https://www.ursulakwongbrown.com/. This episode was originally recorded in February 2024.

This podcast is made possible in part by a grant from the California Arts Council and generous donors, like you. Want to support For Good Measure and E4TT? Make a tax-deductible donation or sign up for our newsletter, and subscribe to the podcast!

Intro music: “Trifolium” by Gabriela Ortiz, performed by E4TT (Ilana Blumberg, violin; Abigail Monroe, cello; Margaret Halbig, piano),  as part of “Below the Surface: Music by Women Composers,” January 29, 2022
Outro music: “Lake Turkana” by Marcus Norris, performed by E4TT (Margaret Halbig, piano), as part of “Alchemy,” October 15, 2021

Transcription courtesy of Otter.ai.
Buzzsprout: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1903729/15653058

Producer, Host, and E4TT co-founder: Nanette McGuinness
Co-producer and Audio Engineer: Stephanie M. Neumann
Podcast Cover Art: Brennan Stokes
Interns: Renata Volchinskaya, Sam Mason, Hannah Chen, Addy Geenen, Yoyo Hung-Yu Lin

Curious to hear a little music from our guest Ursula Kwong-Brown, who we spoke to in our most recent episode? Check out the world premiere of the piece she wrote for us, you can find it on our YouTube channel.

Chapters

• 0:38 In this week's episode, we continue our conversation with Ursula Kwong-Brown, who we spoke to in February 2024.
• 0:46 Have you encountered challenges in either aspects of your career, merged career, as a woman artist of color?
• 2:05 Yeah. So having teachers who are like you would have made a difference?
• 2:55 What advice might you give young women composers or emerging composers, or composers of color in general?

Transcript

Nanette McGuinness  00:00
[INTRO MUSIC] Welcome to For Good Measure, an interview series celebrating diverse composers and other creative artists sponsored by a grant from the California Arts Council. I'm Nanette McGuinness, Artistic Executive Director of Ensemble For These Times. In this week's episode, we continue our conversation with Ursula Kwong-Brown, who we spoke to in February 2024. [INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

Nanette McGuinness  00:30
Have you encountered challenges in either aspects of your career, merged career, as a woman artist of color?

Ursula Kwong-Brown  00:38
I mean, yes, I would say so. I think that just being the only person who looks like you in a room or on a given program is in itself hard. And I almost feel like I don't deserve to say it's hard, because I'm sure it's harder for people who are Black or Brown than for me just being Asian, but I was often the only Asian person in my school, or, like, in the whole building, you know? And so like that, that's hard. You just feel other, even if nobody is being actively hostile, you just feel like you don't belong, or that you're only there because they need, I mean, I can't tell you the number of people who've like been like, oh, we need some diversity. Do you have anything? It's just like, Okay. Like, I'm glad you need, you care about diversity, but like, could you like, pretend it was because you liked my music, but like, it's okay. It's okay.

Nanette McGuinness  01:39
Yeah, so it opened the door, but it still felt insulting somehow, right?

Ursula Kwong-Brown  01:43
Yeah, I mean, I don't say no, but it's like, you know?

Nanette McGuinness  01:49
Yeah. So having teachers who are like you would have made a difference?

Ursula Kwong-Brown  01:53
Yes, I think I think it would definitely make a difference. I, especially in the electronic music world, which is all men, you know. And it's just, like, just generally a space, that's all men too, like, building are all men, classrooms are all men, like, you just, you just feel so uncomfortable. Because you're like, the only xx you know, chromosome, like in the room, you know, it just feels, you know, all the jokes are about sex, like, like, everybody, you just sort of like laugh along, because like, what else do you do? You know, but it's hard to feel like, at home, right?

Nanette McGuinness  02:33
You always feel othered in one way or another?

Ursula Kwong-Brown  02:35
Yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  02:37
Yeah. What advice might you give young women composers or emerging composers, or composers of color in general?

Ursula Kwong-Brown  02:46
I mean, I think as much as you can to form your own communities, find your own friends and stay in touch and, because over the years, I've had a, you know, I've made friends here and there one of my best friends, a composer of Iranian descent from London, and she's wonderful. You know, and now my group, Ninth Planet, we've put, we've programmed some of her music, and you can try to make your own networks and promote each other and get the word out. You know, also to try to listen, to it's, to try to get like, stay aware with what other people are doing. Like I looked up, I found like Darian Donovan Thomas, during the pandemic, and I was like, so excited to find such a talented composer. And then so excited to get to, you know, commission him. And, you know, it takes a bit of doing though because I don't live in New York to like, get online and like search and like, listen to things and you know, but it's, it's worth it. Because, because the world you know, is connected now with the internet and there are other people out there, it's, it's different than when I was like, 13, you know, year 2000. Back, you know, like now now there is community to be found you just have to go find it and reach out and you know, it takes work, but it's there.

Nanette McGuinness  04:16
Yeah, it's one of the fun things I do when I'm dreaming up what I want E4TT to do.

Ursula Kwong-Brown  04:21
I love that. Yeah, you, you do research, yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  04:25
I roam the internet. Either I ask my colleagues and friends who they're listening to, or, as I did you, or, you know, who would you recommend we look at for performing or commissioning because it's both performing and commissioning. And then that leads you down a rabbit hole where their music leads you somewhere else and leads you somewhere else and you contact them and they're interested. And you find out about their friends and peers and colleagues and the whole thing explodes in a really wonderful way.

Ursula Kwong-Brown  04:57
Because conversely, it's easy to get locked in to just like reperforming the same classic things that you know, or the same few modern composers that you love, right. And I mean, there's nothing wrong with that, too. There's always space for your favorite things. But it's easy to not, to not keep expanding. So I am impressed that you do.

Nanette McGuinness  05:18
Well, it's little bit like, you know, walking into a bookstore or a candy store or a toy store, you see all this fabulous music and you're like, Oh, my God, you know, we're just one group, and it's just one lifetime. This is all such wonderful things that I want to bring to the world and expose other people to, I want to share with them, how do I pick, and then there's still tons of other things that you couldn't pick, even though you liked them. So it's a wealth of exciting riches, that you get to wander around and try to choose among.

Ursula Kwong-Brown  05:51
And it's easier to explore than it used to be like, so I remember when I was putting on concerts that it was like 2005 at Columbia, and I had a new music group. And I was like, you know, going down to the New York Performing Arts Library and going through scores that were all men, and all like, very, like changing meter, every bar like it was just like everything. There wasn't that much minimalist that was out it seemed, there wasn't. And I was like, this is, you know, Columbia had some talented performers, but it wasn't a conservatory, like, like, I remember really struggling to find playable and fun and diverse things to play. at the New York Performing Arts Library.

Nanette McGuinness  06:12
No, I do. And I remember when I was putting together just straight singing recitals, or even mixed a little bit, where you want to do interesting things, when I was a grad student, and then as a professional doing recitals. And you know, there was this book, The Art of the Song Recital, which was really helpful. And it was the only thing out there that listed music with instruments, and listed you know, various other things if you wanted to try to not do just a straight song recital, and for whatever reason, I did song recitals, but I also wanted to do other stuff. And the resources weren't as readily available as they are now. The internet really is a democratizer in an amazing way for all its pluses and minuses. That's been really great. I don't know if you know this but did I tell you that we have a commission by Darren Donovan Thomas that will be on the program with you? I mean, we commissioned him several years ago. Yeah.

Ursula Kwong-Brown  07:36
I think I had seen that you'd commissioned him. I love that. That's so wonderful. Did you get the name from Margaret, or did, you we did we just independently?

Nanette McGuinness  07:47
Very independently.

Ursula Kwong-Brown  07:48
Yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  07:49
You guys, Ninth Planet did it. I don't know if the timing was after we commissioned him or not. But in our first full season, I believe of the podcast, Anthony R. Green was one of our early ones. And I asked him for suggestions. And he was very generous. And I believe Darian Donovan Thomas was one of those. And after I did the interview with him, I was like, you know, you want to write something for us?

Ursula Kwong-Brown  08:16
That's wonderful.

Nanette McGuinness  08:17
Yeah. So that was that was actually a while ago at this point. With Margaret, I think she mentioned your connection with Ninth Planet and that you guys had been doing stuff. When I was asking her for her suggestions of composers we might want to explore and your name came up immediately.

Ursula Kwong-Brown  08:35
That's very nice of her.

Nanette McGuinness  08:36
Yeah.

Nanette McGuinness  08:37
[OUTRO MUSIC] Thank you for listening to For Good Measure, and a special thank you to our guest, Ursula Kwong-Brown, for joining us today. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our podcast by clicking on the subscribe button and support us by sharing it with your friends, posting about it on social media and leaving us a rating and a review. To learn more about E4TT, our concert season online and in the Bay Area or to make a tax deductible donation, please visit us at www.e4tt.org. This podcast is made possible in part by a grant from the California Arts Council and generous donors like you. For Good Measure is produced by Nanette McGuinness and Ensemble For These Times, and design by Brennan Stokes, with special thanks to co-producer and audio engineer Stephanie M. Neumann. Remember to keep supporting equity in the arts and tune in next week "for good measure." [OUTRO MUSIC ENDS]